Curse

Ulivious The Reaper · Dec 14, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

warriors are agro and damage, they attack whats in front of them, and to the sides, and saying warriors do paper damage? you're crazy... 4 attacks 1 tank skill 1 healing 1 rez 1 optional is what i bring everytime... hell one of my builds has 5 attacks 1 stance 1 healing and one rez and i do just fine holding/keeping agro

when it comes down to it, it's up to the skill of the individual playing the warrior, not the skills or agro problems"

Chicken Ftw · Dec 14, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Meh, haven't even needed to use defensive shouts. Good monks with decent builds as backup ftw. Usually run a bar with six attack skills, res, and an IAS stance, with 16 weapon mastery. Often drop res for seventh attack skill/utility skill. Damage does drop a little in RoT and other endgame areas, but eh. Still deal larger DPS to a single target than other members, while maintaining survivability. It's just much more fun (imo) to play a purely offensive warrior.

Phaern Majes · Dec 14, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaxhou of Trinity

the sin, although wearing nothing but paper for armor,?

70 AR = same as Ranger = same as Dervish and with insignias, you can make it as good as warriors... so using your description rangers and dervs have paper armor too. The only reason wars are better is they have defensive stances and damage reduction runes/insignias for tanking, rangers are "ranged" so don't have to absorb the damage output of a melee char, and dervs as you said have decent self heals. But please its bad enough people are prejudice against sins, at least be prejudice based on something true and not, "paper thin armor" bs, as 70 AR is the 2nd best in the game. God that bugs me.... /rant

arcanemacabre · Dec 14, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

The only reason wars are better is they have defensive stances and damage reduction runes/insignias for tanking, rangers are "ranged" so don't have to absorb the damage output of a melee char, and dervs as you said have decent self heals.

You forgot one of the best defensive tools - the shield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

I've been running through Tyria with my brother, a warrior, and I haven't found many problems. He'll normaly run in first and positions the enemies around himself while he Triple Chop/Cyclone Axes them. A few times, a stray will make it back to us, but it isn't often.

Tanking in this game is mostly body-blocking, so I don't see how else to fix it other than learning to anticipate enemy movement.

This is pretty much how I play when I go good ol Warrior. I carry Flail and Charging Strike, along with some attack skills and rez. Basically, I run ahead of my group with Charging Strike, heading straight for the monk (or Ele, depending on the situation), and within a few hits I have enough adrenaline to engage Flail and rip through the rest of the group. This initial rush into battle causes most, if not all of the group to aggro me.

When I'm a caster or ranged, I run to the other side of the tank when I start to aggro. This usually shakes them onto the tank.

When I first started playing GW, I would've agreed with you on this. Now that I understand that there are ways to control the aggro through tactics (and not the attribute), well I'd much rather do it that way than waste a couple of skill slots that do the same.

Thallandor · Dec 14, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Nah. The whole point is that there aren't supposed to be skills that are only usable for PvE (well, maybe Sunspear Rebirth Signet and the Lightbringer skills, but they're deliberately unbalanced). Now, how much fun would it be in PvP to be forced to attack a given target because they have a Taunt skill?

Enticements work, however - for instance, you could have shouts that grant enemies penalties if they don't attack the shouter, and possibly benefits if they do (penalties and benefits that the AI might take into account when choosing targets) - which would be something that could conceivably work in PvP - most PvP players will probably know that giving in is to their detriment, and if balanced properly if could be enough of a lose-lose situation to present an interesting dilemma.

Yes i agree, specific class skills affecting only the PvE wont see the light of day at all, taking into account of both PvE/PvP environment.

However Enticements are indeed an interesting proposition that may work both in PvE and PvP that places a dilemma for the opposing team if they want to attack the shouter and remove the detrimental conditions of the shout, or ignore the shouter and continue with the detrimental conditions which would make for an interesting change in the metagame of both PvE and PvP but could pose some problems for balancing due to its overpowering effects, and hence its range of effect should be limited to perhaps earshot.

In short: shouts/skills that causes detrimental effects to the opposition if ignored which would otherwise be removed by attacking/killing the shouter.

Current similar in concept examples:

Backfire (spellcasting punishment), Empthay (attacking punishment), Spiteful Spirit (Attacking punishment)

hence enticement concepts would ideally work in the same format where it punishes those affected by the shout/skill in one way or another but those punishments can be easily removed if those affected will attack/kill the source of the shout/skill user. Hence it works as a form of encouragement to attack a specific target instead of other in the party ie aggro control in both PvE and PvP as well.

Feurin Longcastle · Dec 14, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Stop running pure tank warriors, put attack skills on the bar along with some defensive shouts, and act as a warrior should - damage soak by running in first, defence buff from shouts, and high damage output to critical targets.

A warrior in PvE should be able to tank, but doesn't necessarily need to be a tank.

It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.

Ulivious The Reaper · Dec 14, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle

It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.

lol i think avarre ment "Kiting" not leeroying

arcanemacabre · Dec 14, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle

It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.

Nah, not really. Leeroy Jenkins represents the act of not coordinating with your team (making sure everyone's ready/healed up/energy regen'd), not paying attention to your surroundings (making sure to aggro only one group by watching patrols, etc.), and then running in as you pretend to be Balthazar incarnate.

If you play your cards right, then running straight into the middle of a group, making sure to aggro the entire group (no more and no less), plays into the definition of tank. The best defense is a great offence.

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I still find it amazing that over 1.5 years into the game and people think Warriors as tanks still work.

Hell Marauder · Dec 14, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I still find it amazing that over 1.5 years into the game and people think Warriors as tanks still work.

Indeed, warriors in GW are defined by their high AL armors, even though they aren't targeted exactly because of such high AL. I've always felt GW should adapt a more flexible system, in which anyone can wear any armor but with one catch: higher AL, less magic penetration and hence less healing from monks. Right now, fighters that don't need high AL wear them, while casters who need high AL can't have them. Back to the thread topic, maybe we do need a "war" with rigid formations so warriors can form a frontline that can justify their wearing heavy armors.

Quid Pro Quo · Dec 14, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Would be kind of neat if everytime they used adreneline they could increase the chance that enemies would focus on them.

This wouldn't be a full taunt but it would help them pull as much agro as they used to be able to.

Hand of Ruin · Dec 14, 2006, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Warriors have very good DPS, and with cheap conditions like deep-wound and bleeding, they can lower a target's health significantly pretty quickly.

Warriors can't hold aggro permanently, but they can run ahead first, and absorb the brunt of the enemies force, and give the rest of the team time to cast their spells, which is usually what will then draw aggro away from them.

Avarre · Dec 14, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle

It was precisely that kind of thinking that gave birth to Leeroy Jenkins.

...

Whether running a defensive tank or an offensive warrior, the W in PvE still tends to have to best armor and is thus best suited to running in first. By presenting him as the only target, the first wave of offensive spells will be expended on the target with the heaviest armor, which can also be preprotted.

While the warrior moves directly for the primary target, the casters on your team should be kiting the melee spillover that went for your casters from the mob. The first solid wave of damage should be tanked by the warrior, and should not be able to destabilize your team as your offence should completely neutralize their's before this point. Meanwhile, your defences only have to put up with buffering the first damage wave to the warrior and subsequent damage from the mobs that came past your warrior.

Nexus Icon · Dec 14, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

This is pretty much how I play when I go good ol Warrior. I carry Flail and Charging Strike, along with some attack skills and rez. Basically, I run ahead of my group with Charging Strike, heading straight for the monk (or Ele, depending on the situation), and within a few hits I have enough adrenaline to engage Flail and rip through the rest of the group. This initial rush into battle causes most, if not all of the group to aggro me.

Tip: try Enraging Charge instead.
Your first hit after the charge should generate enough adrenaline to activate Flail immediately

arcanemacabre · Dec 14, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Tip: try Enraging Charge instead.
Your first hit after the charge should generate enough adrenaline to activate Flail immediately

Ya know, I was actually going to try that. I had just capped Charging Strike a few days ago and have been using it religiously since (trying to get my Warrior through NF ATM). When I noticed Enraging Charge, I considered it, and it might work better, freeing up my elite and all.

I agree with Avarre 100%.

I think having a caster as a first character gives one a great insight in how to deal with aggro. Oh yeah, and I don't use a bow for pulling, aggro bubble-touch FTW.

Dark Divinor · Dec 14, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

My W was my first character, and it's my favourite. There's a lot more to being a W than going around smacking stuff until it breaks. Agrroing is the most common, being able to pull a group to you get them to surround you, and maintaining that is quite hard. If you want to do it properly.

Oh Arcane, trying to use a Long/Stormbow for pulling - it helps!

seut · Dec 14, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Nah. The whole point is that there aren't supposed to be skills that are only usable for PvE (well, maybe Sunspear Rebirth Signet and the Lightbringer skills, but they're deliberately unbalanced).

*cough*
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Otyugh%27s_Cry

arcanemacabre · Dec 14, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

*cough*
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Otyugh%27s_Cry

Ahh but that skill will work in PvP, albeit a very bad skill. It will give your own pet +20 armor, if memory serves.

EDIT: Yeah, your pet and all other allied pets in the area.

seut · Dec 14, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

oh...
*points to the sky* look a flying Gwen!
*runs away and hides in shame*

back on topic:
Something taunt-like could be implemented similar to Amity.
hex/shout: for x seconds or for y attacks nearby foes can attack only you.

RTSFirebat · Dec 14, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Warrior - Tactics Skill

Name: Bring it On!

Desciption: Skill. Target foe and foes adjacent to your target become aggrod to you for the next for 10...30 seconds. You lose all Adrenaline but you gain x2 Adrenaline for the next 1...8 seconds.

How about something like that?